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User talk:Mikeyakame
Hi, welcome to The Last Remnant Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the Category talk:Anklet page. Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! -- Merthos (Talk) 2009-05-09T10:52:03 :If you plan on doing more playthroughs could you do me a favor and get 3xSash Recipe 3s (Trade Good in Syvonne's in Elysion, requires Rank D in Recipes, pretty easy) to make an Alpaca Belt? There is no way for me to make this item on the XBOX and thus find out it's disassembly components. Drake178 10:17, 18 June 2009 (UTC) ::It must be your lucky day! Turns out I had 4 of them in my Inventory (4th play through) and I've never used one before. Disassembly is Greasy Oil x1, Shadow Metal x1, Oilfly x1. I updated the Alpaca Belt page with disassembly info. I wonder why they made it possible on Xbox to create this, but requiring an unobtainable amount of components. Mikeyakame 12:21, 18 June 2009 (UTC) :Much appreciated, thank you! It must have been mistyped by the devs seeing as it requires 3 of everything else and a sash recipe 3. I consider it a bug. Drake178 14:06, 18 June 2009 (UTC) Weapon Arts RE: Hawkarang: And other weapon arts, probably. I usually take whatever stance the character is in when they perform the WA to be the "wield style" for the art. If you have a mitra who's learned Hawkarang, we should probably use the stance they have when the WA executes as the wield style. If they learn it with high DW and the stance is 1-H, we may have to revise how WA get learned. -Corban1177 08:49, 20 May 2009 (UTC) Rush had Hawkarang Art last play through, he executes it one-handed everytime since his other hand had an enchanted soulshield in it. So we agree then this is a 1-H art, which probably means it can be learnt any wield style with SL/Shld/Ench Hawkwind and combat art tier/usage/level requirements met. My concern is this: if someone disables all but their chosen Combat Art style, then it might be possible for them to not learn Hawkarang as fast as they should, right? In particular, I had a run where Emmy simply would not learn Cerulean Rain b/c I had disabled everything but DW arts for the entire run. Therefore we shouldn't clutter the table with irrelevant wields since we really want to indicate which CA *must* be developed to get the WA. OTOH, if a high level DW art level can get someone to learn Hawkarang *without* developing 1-H, we should keep that as an option on the table. - Corban1177 10:07, 20 May 2009 (UTC) There is also another unknown factor we can only guess, and that is the weapon specific combat art tier usage the hired unit has for it's base stats. Khrynia is a perfect example of this unknown, her base combat art tier levels are not all level III, and though she does have both Katana specific arts, Moonset and Moonshadow, If I recall correctly she gets Moonset II and Moonshadow. So the unknown is the actual base stat she gets for Katana usage, which to match when learning these Katana arts through base tier use tells a different story all together. This is a given from customizing her a Superlative Demonblade, and triggering her to request it through an enemy encounter. As soon as she equips it she gets Demonsblow Weapon Art in her tree. With every other early game hired unit I've got to learn a weapon specific WA, even giving them the customized weapon as soon as you hire them, they won't learn the weapon art until their base tier/first weapon specific tier combination is equal to all base level iii + first tier specific iii or in some cases base tier at v/iv/iii/iii and first tier at ii or iii. Even when this is met it appears they need additional usage before they acquire the WA. It can be a few fights or a few battle ranks, this tells me the WA usage stat value in increased only by combat usage, but more importantly higher tier arts have higher stat increase, and possibly each use of combat art has a variable increase value. Something along the times of the following: * base stat gain for usage of combat art tier and level, ie level i = base + 1, level ii = base + 2, level v = base + 5 * small stat bonus if use of art results in hit without critical offense effect, ie stat = ( base + x ) + hit * no bonus if use of art results in enemy dodge, ie stat = (base + x) * medium stat bonus if use of art results in hit with critical offense early in chain, ie stat = (base + x ) + crit_hit * max stat bonus if use of art results in final strike of critical offense chain, ie stat = (base + x) + ( crit_hit + 5 ) * further stat bonus if use of results in overkill of union, with or without critical offense, ie stat = (base + x) + overkill + (crit_hit + x) or no (crit_hit + x) if not chained. I dont know any of that for certain, but i'm pretty sure you've come to a similar conclusion as to how the game calculates stats, for both WAs and levelling up current tier/learning new tier. I can say without a doubt there is not only tier learning stats, wa learning stats, but also a general combat art stat which is probably used when there no tier/specific art stat is high enough to level up or even when a level-up chance trigger occurs and fails, if that general stat pool has built up enough, it is drained to trigger something along the lines of random level-up event for either a specific tier, or all tiers. I say this with certainty because I've had combat or mystic arts level up after a fight, when that unit either didn't use any combat/mystic art or unions in attack sequence before current union KO'd all enemy unions before the union which got leveled up could perform their queued command chain. Mystic arts probably behave similarly with general usage, but there is one thing I've noticed that isn't all that obvious but it's visible if you look for it, unit/unions preference of mystic art usage for defense/attack/healing arts, almost like you train the battle engine as you build up fight chains in areas what art type for each defense/attack that union/unit has highest usage rate of turn after based on the 5 given commands the likelyhood you will choose say invocations 4 out of 10 turns, evocations 2 of 10, hexes 1 of 10 and psionics 3 of 10, when you get issued commnands like "Give them all you got" or "Save Them No Matter What/Hurry up and Heal them" or Strike from the Sides/Behind even the command chain for those types of orders reflect both a single unit and unions highest used art types, you will almost always get an Invocation art if the unit has preferential usage of invocations, usually it will be the art that has best AP value for dmg/setup speed that compliments the formation, their position in formation, and maybe even the raised/lowered stats that position entitles, ie speed 80% or mys atk 150%, that may prefer an invocation which has high damage but fast setup time, which gives smallest chance of being dodged during critical offense chain, if in the middle, or fastest setup first, or usually last will be heaviest dmg, slowest setup time if chain isn't broken. This is when I find Attack command is almost always recalculated during the chain, and they will perform an art that has high dmg (SS/S/A) and slow setup time (E/D?). Longer chain is smaller chance of enemy union dodging final attack, 5 union crit off. chain never misses last attack, but a 3 union may have last attack dodged if enemy mobility is high.Mikeyakame 10:28, 20 May 2009 (UTC) I just read your last message and what you are saying does in fact line up with the stat bonus system they use to calculate when to give WA and when to give new tier or improve current tier, and when to trigger the combat art non-tier specific skill level-up from the stats you've earnt from general use of all combat arts. What you said about blocking wield styles slowing down learning a weapon specific WA actually makes a lot of sense if the stat system rewards multiple wield style usage, since Weapon Arts are by definition an art for the Weapon. Say for example my preferred combat weapon is a blade, and i've focused all my training on sword attack/defense techniques, while this specific focus makes me deadly with a blade against other blade experts, and able to hold my own with skilled fighters who have focus on different weapon types, ie staffs, nun-chuks, short/long sais, hand-to-hand. I spent my training focused on how to defend and attack opponents who may not use blades but others like forementioned, here's the thing I might be the best fighter in the world with a blade, but lets say a fighter appears one day who has focus in using more than 1 deadly weapon type and has gone beyond specific focus and developed his own unique tactics/techniques from using and focusing on multiple weapon groups, of dissimilar nature. Being the best blade fighter in the world would actually hurt my chances of winning, he would have the advantage of being able to hold his own with a blade, and with the integration from all his training he would hurt any chance I had of walking out with my ranking in tact. No matter how good and how fast I am, he will always be one or two steps ahead because he didn't take the path of specific focus, and being able to focus on more than one weapon type successfully makes him a foe that would strike fear into the best of fighters, he has everything they have and everything others have, mix them up and you've got one damn deadly fighter. There is one other reason he is so deadly, it is because he is flexible and his flexibility makes it simple for him to constantly develop counters and attacks, for both known and unkno0wn weapons. Give him any weapon and he will master it without any training, and in a much shorter time frame than guy with one focus. Same probably applies with Weapon Arts, though they are Weapon Specific, they don't appear to be wield specific, well you obviously can't use a two-handed staff in power-grip, but that's not wield specific that's just the basic rules of using a staff which requires two hands! Now say you use midsize blade, which can be wielded one-hand, power-grip or dual-wield, you focus on one-handed attacks that will make you great with one-hand but useless with either dual blades or dual hand grip. So lets say this matters, it makes sense if you learn the base tiers of all possible wield styles the weapon can be used with, you have gained the benefits of flexibility and when handling a weapon this is critical to mastering any weapons strengths and weaknesses. So what I'm saying is maybe we have it all wrong...Learning that Weapons abilities can be done through two paths, first is you focus solely on one wield style and perfect it but this makes learning a new wield style with that same weapon a slower process as you have to unlearn your habits, and branch out, second is you don't focus on one wield style but you instead spend that time balancing your wield style training, taking longer to truly learn a weapons unique strengths, but rather when you have mastered switching styles depending on the opponent you'll be able to learn those strengths much faster than the first type. You learn them fast because you and the weapon are one, that lack of focus is your advantage to mastering any weapon in the least time because you learnt what matters most, that the style means nothing if you cant make the weapon an extension of yourself. The style you use with any given weapon will depend solely upon how that weapon and your arm decide how you use it, not your abilities. That is an art, and I think WA's work on a very similar principle. What do you think? Mikeyakame 11:15, 20 May 2009 (UTC) Mikeyakame 10:28, 20 May 2009 (UTC) Upgraded Weapons Wasn't really sure where to leave this so I suppose your talk page is probably the best place. Just curious how you managed to get Gremory Dominus so early. Did you just construct the weapon yourself and pray that Torgal would ask for it? Because on the second playthrough, *none* of the characters would ask for anything at or above the "necrotic metal" weapons even though I had 50+ necrotic metal from the previous game. This is pre-Underwalt. I was stalling and doing stuff before visiting Underwalt since I had issues killing the Fallen so I tried upgrading my weapons as high as possible. It was kind of frustrating to have all the materials needs for people's weapons but they wouldn't upgrade it. When I finally beat the Fallen and then visited Underwalt, all of the characters immediately asked for all the necrotic metal and jewel steel and everything else up to the max possible weapon. Honestly, I have no idea why the game is so stupid in this regard. You should just be able to give materials to your team if you happen to have it but it's probably a game balance issue to have your whole party run around the early areas with 170 atk. On a side note, for the low BR games, like people getting Jager at BR4-6 or whatever, how is it possible to survive? I would think you'd have pretty low HP and almost no skills, like Spark III and level 1 of all the other stuff? Or is there a way to level up arts without increasing BR much. I suppose you could equip a really bad weapon to lower damage so you can use arts more against each mob? But that goes against your early Gremory Dominus. Thanks. Ab123 19:05, 28 May 2009 (UTC) RE: Upgraded Weapons Hey mate! Well with the weapon upgrade bit, you need to create the weapon yourself and they'll request it if it is in their upgrade path! Ie. Torgal with Gremory Dominus, you pick up a Leraje Princeps in a chest in Ivory Peaks, which can be upgraded straight to Gremory Dominus at a customization shop. If you have chosen balance/mystic path for Torgal or not chosen one at all, he will request the Gremory Dominus, but make sure you choose balance/mystic when he asks or he will go the Sovani Hawkwind route and replace it. Also with components for weapon upgrades, even if you have the components, they won't clone them until it is past their weapon upgrade BR. They will only clone rare items that you have few of, ie. Oculus Tooth, Reya's Note, Bristly Dragon Mane for me. They rarely clone Jewel Steel for me, since I started my game with 34. Say for Caedmon you want to upgrade to final weapon, Buer Dominus. You'd do this. Go to Royotia, purchase a Valac from Aunt Jills (shop near guild stairs), then customize it: Valac -> Valac Princeps -> Valac Rex -> Valac Dominus -> Buer Dominus. He will then request the Buer Dominus after a couple of fights! Also in this case, going this route saves you from having to use 1 Tough Bryndilhr Husk throughout customization levels which is rare as hell split/drop. I found that giving them all final upgrade weapons at the start kills your ability to learn new skills, since it usually results in 1 hit enemy union KOs. The union leader will learn fast but the others will be useless. I honestly don't know how these people do BR4-6 Jager, I struggle at low BR with most of the fights way before Jager, hell I restarted my last game because though I had WA's and stuff at BR60 The Fallen/Eldritch Dragon were too annoying to beat with lack of Remedy/Herb/Lotion skills learnt as I focused the whole game on Combat Arts with final upgrade weapons on all my guys, they never took any damage to use healing/reviving arts and thus didn't learn them. If you have Mystic Seal formation, which you get rewarded for one of the guild tasks, this sets your unions ATK/MYS to 0, which reduces the damage arts do substantially. It is the only way to level up abilities without a huge BR increase, but at low BR this is frustrating at best. I am at Elysion now at BR8 with 9 party members/3 unions, and fighting even Grand Beetles is a tough thing to do with 1500hp/union and basic weapons. I think there are a lot of people out there who just lie about BR and doing certain things, or at least don't do it on Hard Mode. I play on Hard Mode, and low BR without high upgrade weapons results in things being thrown at monitors :D Personally I am around BR30 by the time I get Jager, which is comfortable. Any lower is ridiculous as your skill trees are lacklustre and weak. This is on hard mode though, I haven't played normal mode in quite some time, but I remember it was way too easy. Hard kicks it up quite a bit, and makes it a good challenge for me. Mikeyakame 05:18, 29 May 2009 (UTC) :Don't worry about those ridiculous low BR comments, they are done with a trainer. Just the required story fights will raise your BR more. - Merthos 07:19, 29 May 2009 (UTC) ::I totally agree with Merthos. Try to not exaggerate your BR by fighting unnecessarily, but at the same time if you have to fight there is nothing wrong with fighting, after all you need it to improve your characters. Ie Duke of Ghor for example, there is no real gain getting him before BR50 since his weapon upgrades and new skill trees won't be learnt/gained until after BR73. Just remember the more active party members you have, the harder it will be to learn new skills with each of them since they then each have less time in a battle. You need to draw the line somewhere, and it mostly lies in common sense. Mikeyakame 08:39, 29 May 2009 (UTC) :::Also, low BR game seems to mess with character's HP especially towards the game story. For example, i got Emmy with 450+ HP while David was just ±420HP and Rush ±310HP. Later, Rush with ±360HP finally saved his little sister Irina with 710+HP. That's somewhat odd, i think. --Lioni 09:54, 1 June 2009 (UTC) :Indeed that is. I guess it's expected that by certain points in the game story you should be an approximate BR, which will reflect in the party members HP. If you are getting Irina with 700~ hp then the correct BR for that part of the story is when all the main characters have similar. My idea of low BR game on hard mode is the following. :*Nest of Eagles = ~BR 20-25 :*Wyrmskeep = ~BR 30-35 :*Fornstrand = ~BR 35-40 :*Koenisdorf = ~BR 40-45 :*The Fallen = ~BR 55 or higher :Mind you these BR's are with all side quests done along the way as they appear. For me that is what I call a sensible low battle rank game. It doesn't even hurt my learning either this way. I just learnt Holy Win WA with Rush at BR41, and that's without any kind of excessive grinding in Mystic Seal formation. Trick for me is to spend my time taking on rare monsters, and tough mobs and focusing the early parts of the game heavily on using combat arts. I've also found its extremely counterproductive using fully upgraded weapons too early in the game, maybe two or three party members with them to take some of the hit that hard mode gives, but the rest let them upgrade themselves for a while. After Darken Forest is when you want to start giving out final upgrade weapons. : Mikeyakame 10:04, 1 June 2009 (UTC) PC Game Speed in Battle Field Hey Mikeyakame, I was facing the problem since I play The Last Remnant. Sometime my game speed in battle field is very fast but sometime damn slow, if I reset the function it will become normal. How to adjust the game speed in battle field to max? So that I no need to wait for the next command. Thanks Quentinchin 13:43, 28 June 2009 (UTC) PC Version I just wanted to let you know that i obtained a PC verion of the game, and although i'll keep playing it on the XBOX for the time being, i'll eventually switch and try out this one as well. I thought i can edit the save game files to figure some of the mechanics out (like classes), but unfortunately it has some kind of checksum protection (or is compressed), so unless i manage to break into it i can only look at it. I already know where Rush's stats and skills are stored, i just can't edit it without breaking the save. I'll let you know if i find anything interesting. Drake178 08:58, 2 July 2009 (UTC) :Ahh lovely mate. Yeah I found the stats/union formations too and what not but didn't bother to spend the time staring at my screen with a hex editor to play with the save game. It makes sense there is a checksum, the only use I can think of for the save game would be parsing it with a small C/C++ app and translating the values into a readable output. I've been trying to get an answer on address offsets in the binary (tlr.exe) which need to be modified in order to enable battle OSD debug output, but so far haven't gotten very far. One of the guys on Gamefaqs Last Remnant PC forum has the address offsets, but he seems to be busy at the moment and no time to explain what needs to be changed. He's the same guy who wrote a C# trainer for it. If we can get the address offsets I can easily hex edit the binary and give you a copy of it to help me analyze the debug data from the game. That is the most reliable method of understanding the game, and with enough time spent for 2 of us analyzing data and comparing results I'd say without a doubt we'd be able to completely understand the engines mechanics and document it into a concise but understandable format. Mikeyakame 09:36, 2 July 2009 (UTC) ::I just found the c# trainer on gamefaqs, it's pretty advanced by now you can edit almost everything (the only things i'm missing are the stat gain xp and the art group xp, but i'll find that on my own with CE, it does have the individual art XP and the art modifier XP). I just tried setting Rush's stats to 99 before the first tutorial battle and he changed to Expert Fighter (rather than Freelancer) with the 2 normal attacks i've done. This basically confirms the existence of art requirements for the classes, we just have to find them. There's no such thing as 'Axe usage high' or 'Remedies usage high', it's probably 'Rank A in Axes' and 'Rank S in Remedies' instead. Then whichever you meet first will be the one you change into. I also don't believe in 'Item Arts > Mystic Arts', but rather 'Rank B in any Item Art' or 'Rank B in any Mystic Art'. We'll see once i get going with it, i probably won't start until i go on holiday at the end of July though, this will take a while. Drake178 11:45, 2 July 2009 (UTC) :I'm positive it is the same thing too as you described, but it is easier telling people the requirement is Remedies Usage High, because they can relate to that better, ie. Use remedies most and you will change to this class! It's a no brainer I suppose you'd call it. Makes it a lot easier to comprehend for some of the younger audience. I'm positive some class have Art Rank requirements though, *Ninja appears to require Rank S remedies and Rank SS Dual Wield Arts, with a certain amount of usage for each. To go up ranks in the class, requires x amount of extra usage for each to be met along with a STR/INT req. *Bishop is one I'm not too sure on, so to change to the class it required 2 Rank SS Remedies at ~ Level II, After some usage and learning Second Chance, Pagus went to Expert Bishop. So far he has Support III, Kiss of Life III, Second Chance I, and hasn't changed to next rank yet. I'm thinking it might require all Rank SS at III. No rush on when you can start, it's only time life comes before games anyhow. Mikeyakame 13:07, 2 July 2009 (UTC) More Art Research 17FF0000h is where the generic skills start (using CE), first one is One-Handed, next is Power Grip. Don't know the exact record size or working mechanics yet, just posted in case you want to do your own research (took a while to find it, if it's not there for you - might be a dynamic address i didn't backtrack it yet - it's helpful to know that new game starts with 0 and basic attack gives 4 xp, makes it faster to find). Setting 17FF0000h (2 bytes) to 1k learns C-B-A arts after one attack with one-handed, setting it to 10k learns rank S too. Drake178 21:50, 5 July 2009 (UTC) :update: The record format looks something like this: :*offset 00-03: regular xp :*offset 04-07: battle xp :*offset 08: 1-byte aux value, probably rank, goes from 1-32 :*offset 09-0B: FF FF 00 (probably delimeter) :The basic mechanics: At the beginning of the turn you get 2 xp for the wield style you're in if you selected a regular attack or combat art for the command chain. When acting, you get 2 xp for the command performed. This means that if you select PG as wield style for a 1H weapon, you'll get 2 xp towards PG at the start of the first turn even if you chose to use Knee Splitter. Performing the art will net you 2 xp to 1H and leave you in 1H stance for the beginning of the next round. :All this xp goes to the second 4 bytes during combat. When the battle ends, before the summary comes up, this is added to the regular xp and then zeroed out. The sum of the two values is used to check for learning new arts (probably whenever the battle xp changes, hence why you can't learn anything until you actually use the skill no matter how high you set the regular xp). The max value for both counters is 5000, anything above that will get reverted to 5000, however setting the regular xp to FF FF FF FF will zero out the skill the next time it's used. The aux byte after the xp values seems to denote the rank of the skill, it gets incremented automatically at certain xp values, the max value is 32 (#20h). One interesting thing about this is that when you only set the regular xp the engine will calculate this automatically and move any excess xp compared to the last learning point to the battle xp instead (i guess it's part of the code that determines the rank). Unfortunately i'm running into weird calculations every time i try to find a static entry point for this code block so you might have to find it for yourself using the data i provided. It's always at the same place the first time the game is started but it moves when you reload a save. Drake178 06:52, 6 July 2009 (UTC) Here's an interesting side effect of my research: :Thanks for the info! I see by the screenshot, you changed the bytes that give you each type of mystic art tree and thus learnt each new art ;) I'm still trying to figure out how the hell you change to Ordainer class, as it seems to be taking a LONG LONG while to get all the necessary weapon usage required. So far I have get Spear Usage High, Sword Usage Semi-High, others haven't even begun on yet! This seems like a god damn impossible class to reach without a couple of solid weeks of grinding in Mystic Seal formation. Ninja/Warlock are much more easily obtainable tier 7 classes. Mikeyakame 11:55, 6 July 2009 (UTC) ::As soon as i figure out where all the skills are stored (only missing item arts now) i'll get on to the classes. For the record, out of the max 5000 xp for skills, Khrynia starts with 2600 xp in Power Grip and 2100 xp in Katana, her individual art xp added together is nowhere near these numbers. Thats your key to Demonsblow. Anyway, if you're interested, i posted on gfaqs how to find the wield styles/weapon types records with CE. I probably won't put anything but research data here now, i don't want to encourage cheating. Drake178 12:41, 6 July 2009 (UTC) :research: (random thoughts) :* Combat arts trigger new skill learning when the wield style and weapon type xp meets a requirement. Changing just the skill tree xp is enough to trigger learning. :* Mystic arts seem to trigger a mystic chance only with specific art use, changing the skill tree xp only enables learning higher ranks, it does not trigger learning itself. Even then, you must have all rank B to learn rank A, etc. :* Item arts can go from Tier I straight to Tier V (have to test this with Combat too sometime) when learning is triggered via individual arts. Individual art xp does not control new art learning. Drake178 12:41, 6 July 2009 (UTC) Since it takes an immense amount of time for me to calculate where each character's stuff is (i'm not about to code a trainer) i only checked the first four (after them it's generic leaders in the sequence, 6-7 records per character, 12 bytes per record...). Anyway, here's what they have: * David: 1H - 5k (maxed), Sword - 3692 * Pagus: 2H - 5k (maxed), Staff - 1383 (!) * Torgal: QW - 5k (maxed), Sword - 3606 * Baulson: 2H - 5k (maxed), Spear - 2732 And a bonus, here's your Rush, i have to say he's nowhere near an Ordainer :P Rush: :Awesome! Perhaps it only takes around ~1000XP on Weapon Specific to learn Weapon Art. Pagus learnt Daisy Chain a while ago! Interesting to say the least! Yeah Rush is quite a long way away from Ordainer, but still closer than say Ninja or Warlock!What I wonder is does using Normal Attack count towards Weapon Specific, or is it only the use of the combat arts? I'm suprised his Spear is so high, but then again he did learn Heavens Door about 20 battle ranks ago, on the other hand he didn't learn Schiavona! Anyway see if you can find good use for the saved game, it should save you a lot of time having to redo things from scratch to help with your findings. It's the least I can do to help right now! Mikeyakame 14:34, 6 July 2009 (UTC) ::No, regular attack doesn't increase weapon specific. Pretty much everything i wrote down on Developing Arts during the XBOX research is accurate, the only info i gained so far from the PC is that simply giving the command to do something gets you half the xp (since i tested with Rush only using an Elf's Escape most of the time i couldn't know this). As for the Schiavona, the c# trainer tells me there are 3 different weapon arts called Schiavona and i'm inclined to believe this. There are also 4 different Heaven's Doors. Were you trying with a Schiavona Virtutis vs a Superlative Glaive? Drake178 16:22, 6 July 2009 (UTC) ::Makes sense. 1 Schiavona for each derivative, and 1 Heavens Door for each Glaive Derivative + 1 Heavens Door for Buer Dominus. I was trying with Schiavona Artis for Schiavona, and Superlative Glaive for Heavens Door. I had learnt Heavens Door with the Glaive with Rush but not Schiavona.Mikeyakame 02:06, 7 July 2009 (UTC)